Flower's circling

[FosterMom]

I didn't know where to post this. Since Flower's hydrochephalus is a genetic disease I thought here would be appropriate.

As a result of this disease she has a neurological problem with her eyes. She tilts her head and walks in circles to the right. She spins real fast when she is excited like someone comes over to visit. If I clap my hands or stomp my feet she usually stops spinning and comes to me. But since she was spayed last month she gets excited and goes into this uncontrollable spin where I have to physically reach down and stop her. No clapping or stomping gets her to stop. She bangs into things not paying any attention to what is around her. For example, we went to my hubby's house last night. She knew instantly where we were so I put her down on the walkway. Usually she b-lines for the door but yesterday she stood there cirlcling herself dizzy. She was so happy to be there. She used to be able to stop herself and this worries me. I have no frame of reference for this disease. I have found one success case of a hydrochephalus in a mini greyhound that won the World Ugliest Dog Contest. I have been meaning to try and contact them to get more details. I suppose I should.

I just hope it is not a bad sign. Although she is still fine in every other way. Then again she did nip at me when I was grooming her the other day and she got into serious fights with a Shih Tzu named Sadie that spent last week with us while her owners went away. Both my daughter and I realized it was Flower who was the instigator. Hmmm!!! Sweet little Flower... No way you say!!! Yup!!! Can't believe it myself.

We also brought her in my mother's pool for the first time last weekend. I wanted to know if she fell in would she be able to swim? I found out she would probably drown. She kicked her feet and had the right instincts but she tilted to the right and was going under. I don't think she will ever be able to swim but I am going to try a few more times. She does well not to fall in the pool when running around the yard with the other dogs. Though I am afraid to ever leave her at my mom's. They might not watch her close enough.

[dieselsmummy]

This has had me welling up with tears...I can just picture her like a little spinning top...all excited and dizzy! :D Now, Diesel does instinctively "circle" in excitement, though not to that degree.....When my mobile buzzes between 7pm and 8pm, he knows its Julie saying its time to go walkies......and he lifts his ears up and watches me intently, and as soon as I say "Do you wanna go walkies" he circles, chases his own tail, spins one way, then the other, and always stops with a sneeze! Its very ritualistic and makes us laugh every time!! But its def a circling thing too, so I am wondering is that a Lhasa trait? I dont know if Diesel can swim either, as hes so phobic around water I havent tried him though Im sur ethat day will come...Julie my friend says its best to get in the water with them and guide them, though Diesel would be terrifed at the moment still.....thats something else he will learn to overcome Im sure. Maybe would Flower be better of she saw Apolo doing it too?She does seem to love him a lot?

[Bunch]

:cry: :cry: Oh Anj I can't believe this! This made me very, very sad reading through. Flower was making so much progress and pretty quickly too and then this happens. I can't see it being connected to the 'spade' so maybe, and hopefully, it could just be a 'blip' . It must be heartbreaking for you to witness and you must be shocked at her change in behaviour as in the nip and the fight with the Shih Tzu.

Did you say that Flower was on some steroid type of medication Anj? And are you still considering the op that provides a 'shunt'? Im sure I remember you saying something about this or similar to this.

Im wondering if you could take Flower to one of these Canine Hydro centres where dogs are harnessed to safety lines and are helped to stay above the water...............this could help re-direct her and the buoyancy of the water will help with balance. Its only a thought but every little helps.

As for the nipping and the fight, abnormal behaviour is one of the signs of hydrocephalus as you know anyway but maybe and hopefully its only mild and this may be the only time this will be encountered but you know yourself this could worsen and I for one hope it does'nt.

I feel awkward and very sad having to talk about this but I suppose facing the facts is the best way around. I just wish I could help in some way but I feel helpless. I must say though that the only circling Lexi does is when she is wanting 'to bed down' to go to sleep - I know this is of no help to you but thought I'd say.

Oh Anj, I really hope this really is a temporary thing. Im stumped, completely stumped. Love always, Lia xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[DAISYBELL]

Me too sad,... but when i was little i had a poodle, Candy was her name, she spent her life running round and round in circles.. i used to laugh and say she was a circus dog..and maybe just maybe Flower was upset by her spaying, being away from you, would make her anxious, and also it obv. hurt to have an major op. so maybe she nipped when you were grooming her, to say stay away from my tum, and also same with the other dog too, if she has just been spayed and these things have happens since i would like to say they have to be connected i really believe this. She the lovely Flower t.m. (haha must have a trade mark!!) i feel has been taken away from her mum, and had her tum cut open, so she must be feeling upset and sore then mum grooming her," hello leave me alone i don't feel like being pulled about" then her friend comes to play, again "hello go away i have just had an op. and i am afraid this other dog is going to hurt me" please god this is all it is., this is what i am going to believe anyway bout my lovely "doggod"xx (as for the swimming thing don't know? my alsation Kim when i was younge used to swim, but have never put either Daisy or Lulu in the water so cannot say, Candy didn't go swimming either) Actually i have been thinking since first posting and i really think the circling is anxiety, esp when you took her to hubby's house, and i think this all down to the op., and i really feel she will settle down, dogs unlike humans don't have that many ranges to their emotions., i think she has been rocked by being away and the op. and then taken again out to another house, even though she knows that house but coupled with her sight probs., feel she just anxious. I know all about anxiety as i have agorophobia., as we have disgussed before., not that i am suggesting that she not being taken anywhere, but think this was the prob. again please god., sorry to go on but she really is close to my heart too.xx

[FosterMom]

This has had me welling up with tears...I can just picture her like a little spinning top...all excited and dizzy! :D Now, Diesel does instinctively "circle" in excitement, though not to that degree.....When my mobile buzzes between 7pm and 8pm, he knows its Julie saying its time to go walkies......and he lifts his ears up and watches me intently, and as soon as I say "Do you wanna go walkies" he circles, chases his own tail, spins one way, then the other, and always stops with a sneeze! Its very ritualistic and makes us laugh every time!! But its def a circling thing too, so I am wondering is that a Lhasa trait? I dont know if Diesel can swim either, as hes so phobic around water I havent tried him though Im sur ethat day will come...Julie my friend says its best to get in the water with them and guide them, though Diesel would be terrifed at the moment still.....thats something else he will learn to overcome Im sure. Maybe would Flower be better of she saw Apolo doing it too?She does seem to love him a lot?

yes, Jaxson does a little circle dance when it comes to food or time to go out for walkies. It's so cute. I'm sure the instinct to circle is right with Flower. Maybe it is a trait. Flower just handles it with a little more enthusiasm. :D

[FosterMom]

:cry: :cry: Oh Anj I can't believe this! This made me very, very sad reading through. Flower was making so much progress and pretty quickly too and then this happens. I can't see it being connected to the 'spade' so maybe, and hopefully, it could just be a 'blip' . It must be heartbreaking for you to witness and you must be shocked at her change in behaviour as in the nip and the fight with the Shih Tzu.

Did you say that Flower was on some steroid type of medication Anj? And are you still considering the op that provides a 'shunt'? Im sure I remember you saying something about this or similar to this.

Im wondering if you could take Flower to one of these Canine Hydro centres where dogs are harnessed to safety lines and are helped to stay above the water...............this could help re-direct her and the buoyancy of the water will help with balance. Its only a thought but every little helps.

As for the nipping and the fight, abnormal behaviour is one of the signs of hydrocephalus as you know anyway but maybe and hopefully its only mild and this may be the only time this will be encountered but you know yourself this could worsen and I for one hope it does'nt.

I feel awkward and very sad having to talk about this but I suppose facing the facts is the best way around. I just wish I could help in some way but I feel helpless. I must say though that the only circling Lexi does is when she is wanting 'to bed down' to go to sleep - I know this is of no help to you but thought I'd say.

Oh Anj, I really hope this really is a temporary thing. Im stumped, completely stumped. Love always, Lia xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Oh Bless you for worrying so deeply. I really do believe her behavior is connected to the recent spay. May be hormonal. No, Flower has never needed a shunt or any kind of steroid. She never needed any medications for anything other than a pain pill after her spay. And don't worry the symptoms of hydrochephalus (HC)are nurological and not behavioral. They said I should watch out for her loosing control on one side of her body, or changes in her eyes. Swelling of the head, which she never has had. Daisybell thinks it is anxiety and I tend to agree with her. Thinking about it I realized that when Zoey was spayed last year she went through the same thing. It took her a few months to get back to her sweet self. I have no doubt that it was hormonal.

When Flower was fighting with the neighbor's dog it was only when Sadie had Flower pinned to the ground upside down. If Flower played with Sadie standing up she played nice, so maybe she felt threatened by this strange dog on top of her like that. As for the nipping at me, Jaxson does it too so i'm not going to worry about that one.

As for swimming, I was in the pool with her the whole time, my mother even had Apolo in with her at the same time. I should have had my dad film it. Next time. I was trying to teach Flower to swim toward the steps, but I was nervous so I didn't give her the opportunity to try and correct herself. I'm still nervous, but we will keep trying. I put her to the step and let her climb out of the pool on her own. First lesson.

[FosterMom]

Me too sad,... but when i was little i had a poodle, Candy was her name, she spent her life running round and round in circles.. i used to laugh and say she was a circus dog..and maybe just maybe Flower was upset by her spaying, being away from you, would make her anxious, and also it obv. hurt to have an major op. so maybe she nipped when you were grooming her, to say stay away from my tum, and also same with the other dog too, if she has just been spayed and these things have happens since i would like to say they have to be connected i really believe this. She the lovely Flower t.m. (haha must have a trade mark!!) i feel has been taken away from her mum, and had her tum cut open, so she must be feeling upset and sore then mum grooming her," hello leave me alone i don't feel like being pulled about" then her friend comes to play, again "hello go away i have just had an op. and i am afraid this other dog is going to hurt me" please god this is all it is., this is what i am going to believe anyway bout my lovely "doggod"xx (as for the swimming thing don't know? my alsation Kim when i was younge used to swim, but have never put either Daisy or Lulu in the water so cannot say, Candy didn't go swimming either) Actually i have been thinking since first posting and i really think the circling is anxiety, esp when you took her to hubby's house, and i think this all down to the op., and i really feel she will settle down, dogs unlike humans don't have that many ranges to their emotions., i think she has been rocked by being away and the op. and then taken again out to another house, even though she knows that house but coupled with her sight probs., feel she just anxious. I know all about anxiety as i have agorophobia., as we have disgussed before., not that i am suggesting that she not being taken anywhere, but think this was the prob. again please god., sorry to go on but she really is close to my heart too.xx

[FosterMom]

Me too sad,... but when i was little i had a poodle, Candy was her name, she spent her life running round and round in circles.. i used to laugh and say she was a circus dog..and maybe just maybe Flower was upset by her spaying, being away from you, would make her anxious, and also it obv. hurt to have an major op. so maybe she nipped when you were grooming her, to say stay away from my tum, and also same with the other dog too, if she has just been spayed and these things have happens since i would like to say they have to be connected i really believe this. She the lovely Flower t.m. (haha must have a trade mark!!) i feel has been taken away from her mum, and had her tum cut open, so she must be feeling upset and sore then mum grooming her," hello leave me alone i don't feel like being pulled about" then her friend comes to play, again "hello go away i have just had an op. and i am afraid this other dog is going to hurt me" please god this is all it is., this is what i am going to believe anyway bout my lovely "doggod"xx (as for the swimming thing don't know? my alsation Kim when i was younge used to swim, but have never put either Daisy or Lulu in the water so cannot say, Candy didn't go swimming either) Actually i have been thinking since first posting and i really think the circling is anxiety, esp when you took her to hubby's house, and i think this all down to the op., and i really feel she will settle down, dogs unlike humans don't have that many ranges to their emotions., i think she has been rocked by being away and the op. and then taken again out to another house, even though she knows that house but coupled with her sight probs., feel she just anxious. I know all about anxiety as i have agorophobia., as we have disgussed before., not that i am suggesting that she not being taken anywhere, but think this was the prob. again please god., sorry to go on but she really is close to my heart too.xx

I think you are absolutely right Yvonne. Thank you for that 'cause you got me thinking about Zoey and how she was the same way after her spaying. Although I was there with Flower as she fell asleep under anesthesia and she was back in my arms long before she woke up and home in her bed before she knew what hit her. After two days you would never know she was sore, but you may be right. Plus I think the nipping has something to do with the way she see the scissors coming at her. I still have no clue how or what she sees like. Her eyes seem to be more stable and don't wander as much but who knows what she is really seeing. She does love to go with me to gramma's or daddy's house. I will put a hold on any new fosters for a while to give her a chance to get over this.

So it's probaly all just fine and normal and I have worried myself and you all for nothing. But as always, Thanks for all the input. It helps more than you know.

[Bunch]

Hi Anj

I never thought about the anxiety part and really, on reading the posts, yes it all makes more sense but Im angry with myself for not even giving this a thought. I think I was trying to connect the HC to the spade rather than what can follow the trauma of a spade in some pooches.

It all fits now - the nip, the fight especially ( I didnt realise the circumstance until you explained) and the visit to your Hubby's home..........all rolled into one so yes, alot of anxiety there for dear little Flower. Bless her.

Im hoping that the next post is to say that she has calmed down and all is back to normal. You know that we are all behind you on this and rooting for you and Flower................we class ourselves as her 'english aunts' and we care very much about her wellbeing. Special kisses and hugs from me xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[FosterMom]

Hi Anj

I never thought about the anxiety part and really, on reading the posts, yes it all makes more sense but Im angry with myself for not even giving this a thought. I think I was trying to connect the HC to the spade rather than what can follow the trauma of a spade in some pooches.

It all fits now - the nip, the fight especially ( I didnt realise the circumstance until you explained) and the visit to your Hubby's home..........all rolled into one so yes, alot of anxiety there for dear little Flower. Bless her.

Im hoping that the next post is to say that she has calmed down and all is back to normal. You know that we are all behind you on this and rooting for you and Flower................we class ourselves as her 'english aunts' and we care very much about her wellbeing. Special kisses and hugs from me xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Last night after I posted this I went to bed. Everyone came with me except Flower, she was still busy playing with her toys running around the house. I think I need to take her out for some run around time to relieve her anxieties. We'll go to the park later.

At first I thought there might be a connection between her behavior and HC too but like you said the anxiety makes sense. This is why I post this stuff. You all help me more than you know. I always feel better after chatting with you. Thanks for being here for us. Bless you.

[Bunch]

Hi Anj

I never thought about the anxiety part and really, on reading the posts, yes it all makes more sense but Im angry with myself for not even giving this a thought. I think I was trying to connect the HC to the spade rather than what can follow the trauma of a spade in some pooches.

It all fits now - the nip, the fight especially ( I didnt realise the circumstance until you explained) and the visit to your Hubby's home..........all rolled into one so yes, alot of anxiety there for dear little Flower. Bless her.

Im hoping that the next post is to say that she has calmed down and all is back to normal. You know that we are all behind you on this and rooting for you and Flower................we class ourselves as her 'english aunts' and we care very much about her wellbeing. Special kisses and hugs from me xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Last night after I posted this I went to bed. Everyone came with me except Flower, she was still busy playing with her toys running around the house. I think I need to take her out for some run around time to relieve her anxieties. We'll go to the park later.

At first I thought there might be a connection between her behavior and HC too but like you said the anxiety makes sense. This is why I post this stuff. You all help me more than you know. I always feel better after chatting with you. Thanks for being here for us. Bless you.

No thanks ever needed here Anj .....................we enjoy knowing about all your pooches and of course Flower is that bit more special for obvious reasons. Crikey, if you were over here, or we were over there, can you imagine how much play time and how many walks Flower and the gang would have - we certainly would tire them out thats for sure - infact you would'nt even get a look in :D :D :D Do keep us all informed............we're all here supporting you as always xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[DAISYBELL]

Hi Anjeanette, yes even more reason to suspect anxiety.... she went to sleep in mum's arms, woke up in mum's arms, prob after the anethesitc wore off, in pain.. i had 2 emergancey ceasarians., both after long hours of labour, i tell you how anyone chooses to have a major op like that i do not know....( although i do know people who have had this in the portland hosp. in london where posh spice had hers and they leave the epidural in for at least 4 days after so they feel no immediate pain!!by that time the healing process has started). But let me tell you it is agonising if you were me in a local nhs hosp. 24 and 21 years ago!!!! Flower no exception... went to sleepybyes snugged up with mum, woke up mum still there cuddling, then the pain relief stopped... my oh my tummy in bad pain, can't see all that well, mum still here that's good but why do i hurt what happened?, home now, oh dear why do my insides feel like they have been wrung out, and my tummy soo sore., couple of days later, oh i am having a bath, hope mum doesn't catch my tum.... friend comes to play oh she's being rough with me hope she don't catch my sore tum...... going to daddy's house., oh going out in the car.. last time i went in the car i had a very sore tummy... and i don't remember where i was?? oh was it at daddy's house??? can't remember??? can't see all that well and my tum hurts still, am at daddy's house now oh dear am afraid, tum still hurts going round and round in circles, i am worried, still can't see too good and got to go back in the car where too???.am i going back to where they hurt my tum???. (to cut through for ceasarian you go through not just the skin you can see, but through lots of muscle tissue etc, internal stitching more than external stitching)... so look ok on the outside, but inside still sore and am afraid of what is going on mum was with me all the time, but still i hurt, why do i hurt?????........ Anxiety for sure.xx(just my take on the lovely Flower xxx) That's also not even taking on board the hormanal effects.......... Also then i promise i will shut up..! but have you told her what happened, i used to tell Daisy every step of the way what was going on and was going to happen, i also talk to Lulu., i don't know if they really understand but it always made me feel better, every vet's visit for Daisy i told her it's ok Dais they are just going to do this and it's ok Daisy you are not staying here etc... oh upset myself again!!!! night god bless xxx

[FosterMom]

I know when I had my c-section it hurt so laugh, cough, walk, get up and then some. Worst pain I ever had, but from what I have been told Dogs do not feel pain like we do. Plus Flower was on pain medication for 7 days and I kept her home while Apolo, Zoey & Jaxson went to my parents house so the hosue was relatively calm for 7 days after her surgery. But she went through a phase similar to false labor where she horded toys and protected them if, God forbid, the cat walked by or my old Boston Terr. Buggy. She trusted me with her toys though.

Although I have to say she got so excited when my mother came over today and I was getting ready to stop the uncontrollable spin, but she stopped herself and followed the rest of the dogs with my mom. So now I'm thinking that the other dogs play an important role by guiding her. Apolo, Zoey & Jaxson were at my mother's for three days and I noticed her uncontrollable spinning much more when they were gone. Now that they are home she is calming down. maybe a good deal of her anxiety was missing her buddy Apolo. Hmmm!!! I'm sure her hormones and the recent surgery are also a big part of this. I'll keep you posted.

[Bunch]

I know when I had my c-section it hurt so laugh, cough, walk, get up and then some. Worst pain I ever had, but from what I have been told Dogs do not feel pain like we do. Plus Flower was on pain medication for 7 days and I kept her home while Apolo, Zoey & Jaxson went to my parents house so the hosue was relatively calm for 7 days after her surgery. But she went through a phase similar to false labor where she horded toys and protected them if, God forbid, the cat walked by or my old Boston Terr. Buggy. She trusted me with her toys though.

Although I have to say she got so excited when my mother came over today and I was getting ready to stop the uncontrollable spin, but she stopped herself and followed the rest of the dogs with my mom. So now I'm thinking that the other dogs play an important role by guiding her. Apolo, Zoey & Jaxson were at my mother's for three days and I noticed her uncontrollable spinning much more when they were gone. Now that they are home she is calming down. maybe a good deal of her anxiety was missing her buddy Apolo. Hmmm!!! I'm sure her hormones and the recent surgery are also a big part of this. I'll keep you posted.
Wow this says alot Anj..............I can see the picture very clearly now. Poor Flower was really missing Apolo!!!! Her soul mate!!! Of course all the others help her too but yes I think you are right here where Apolo's concerned. Maybe it would be a good idea to not separate them again and see how she goes xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[FosterMom]

Just to prove what an important role Apolo plays in Flower's socialization, yesterday my daughter took Apolo with her to work. He was gone from the house for 5 hours. When a friend came over Flower went into her spin where I had to stop her again. When Apolo was home with her later in the day Wayne (Big Daddy) showed up, she loves him more than anyone so her spinning is out of control when he comes over, but she spun her usual 5 times and walked along side of Apolo following Big Daddy as he entered the house. She was actually following the whole pack, not just Apolo but Apolo is the one who looks out for her and always pays her some attention.

She is fine. I really didn't meant to worry anyone with this. It's hard with her because everytime she trips, or looks a little tired, hiccups or burps, or anything I've never seen her do before I freak, wondering if it's a sign of the disease progressing. Even when she was obsessed with digging I was concerned. I will only rest easy when she turns two years old. That is the age the disease will stabilize and not get any worse. Dogs with this disease that have had shunts and all kinds of medical intervention have stabilized at 2 years of age if they survived. Flowers chances are way greater than any of those other dogs I have read about. That's my problem, I only found info on the worst cases, I would love to hear about success stories like Flowers. Maybe I would rest easier.

Every day I have it in the back of my mind. I'm not supposed to let her grab toys and shake her head back and forth. Yeah right!!! :shock: That's her favorate thing to do with her rope toys. She loves tug-of-war too. And let me tell you that girl has got a grip. If she doesn't let go herself you will not get the toy away from her. My little power grip girl. I'm not supposed to let her bang her head yet when she is running around the house at night playing you hear her head bumping under the bed or coffee table. She never bangs it hard but when she gets too crazy like that I always slow her down. Then I think I am stopping her from having a good time and I hate to do that too. So every day it is a battle of "should I let her, shouldn't I?" But hse is still healthy, growing and learning just as she should so I probably worry more than I need to.

Thanks for listening (or I should say reading)

[DAISYBELL]

So pleased for the good news Anj she sounds just fine to me.... Know what you mean bout worrying., obv. i think if you think she maybe just going too mad intervene., but at the end of the day you can't wrap her in cotton wool, then she would have no life, so what then would be the point... My first cat, Milly "adopted" me!., i'd never had a cat before, she was part ferel, spent 20 hours a day outside mostly, she had 2 kittens shortly after she found me, i still have them (they are now 12!) however after i'd had her bout 5 years she was run over and blinded in one eye and parcially sighted in the other also damaged her hip (although that was operated on and was ok)., I was advised not to let her out., it was ok for 8 months she showed no interest in the outdoors and during that time she really became "my" cat she would follow me all over the house like a dog and sit on my lap (without biting me!!)., I really loved her., then one day the back door was open (i had become complacent as she had not tried to go near the door) and she wandered into the garden my heart was in my mouth, i was terrified, and eventually got her back in, b ut that was that after that any chance she got she tried to get out,, and i made the decision that to keep her cooped up indoors, never feeling the sun on her or the wind on her , or too never again chase the leaves would be more cruel to such an "outside" cat so used the let her out for short periods, all was fine for a couple of years until 5 years ago and she was run over again and killed instantly in the aftermath of the snow., i was heartbroken , makes me cry still am now., but i have never regretted the decision to let her be a cat, she loved to go out., to have "imprisioned" her for the rest of her life would have too cruel (different for the indoor cats who know, no difference. I suppose in my long winded way i am trying to say , yes Flower has special needs which obv. need addressing., but for her to have a life completely devoid of, playing etc., which she obv. enjoys so much would be equally cruel. xx

[Bunch]

Apolo is obviously makeing life for Flower (and you) alot easier in all aspects of Flower's everyday life. I can understand you fully worrying constantly because I would be exactly the same. The thing is though, dogs do get into all sorts of tangles and they will always get over excited and bang into objects but I can see the worry in Flower's case if she bumps her head - it must be very tiring following her around and watching her every move although I know you would'nt have it any other way.

It must be heartbreaking at times Anj not knowing what is going to happen next - if it happens - but each day is more precious than the one before and Im sure Flower will pull through all this...........as Ive said before, she has fought and fought and is a strong little lady! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx